10 September 2007

Tailoring skill

Roja always wanted to make a lot of new clothing items for the game, but until recently, she was busy with other things. In the last few weeks, she made a lot of clothing items. Pirate outfits, fancy clothes, and so on.
We had two choices:
1. Sell them from the store and make big $$$ (well, not really).
2. Make a new skill so that the players can make the items themselves.

We decided to go with the new skill, because it would add more fun to the game, which eventually means more $$$ for us (indirectly). We are so devious, aren't we? :)

Anyway, this skill will be very difficult to implement properly. Why? Because the idea of the nice clothes is that they have to be EXPENSIVE, or else everyone has them and they are not rare anymore.
Imagine everyone was able to make clothes, who would be stupid to buy them?
Now, imagine everyone had to do 500 shirts a day just to get more experience in order to make suits. The shorts would not be very valuble on the market, would they?

So the idea is that people should be able to level this skill without actually making [many] clothes. One way is to add a lot of low level resources to the game, such as fabric and dyes. So the low level tailors would just make fabric and dyes, until they reach level 30 or so. Making those things will be time consuming, so many people will not take the skill, leaving only a few selected, dedicated people to do most of the clothing in the game, which they can sell for a lot of gold coins.
Another idea is to move some items from manufacturing to tailoring, such as the scarfs, gloves, etc. But if I do that, I'll need to find some replacement items for the newbie manufacturers, to fill in some gaps.
This skill is still a few months away, so I have enough time to decide how to do it, and will ask for some player feedback as well.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

Awesome!! Here's an idea if you change the fur gloves, fox scarfs, etc to the tailor skill...

Why not make wood handles a newbie manu item..and other objects made of wood (obviously there isn't much of a selection, but you could do like a wooden sword (high break rate, iron sword-like stats) as other fillers.

I do think the first idea with the dyes and such would be best.

10/9/07 01:29  
Blogger Radu said...

Yes, or I can just move some low level crafting items (such as thread) to either tailoring or manufacturing, and add some extra low level stuff to crafting.
There are many posibilities, and I am sure that players will complain either way :)

10/9/07 04:10  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe tailoring could be enabled only in special areas. You need certain tools to make clothes, barrels to fill with chemicals (-->eng skill) to dye cloth, a loom to actually make cloth, a table sewing machine maybe.

Those tools should be rare and scattered across both continents so lots of moving around is involved (no mass production at sto). Dye chemicals are hazardous, of course.

If you're not careful enough, your hand could get into the loom and those sewing machines are tricky and can easily ruin everything ...

10/9/07 04:28  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Add thread to tailoring, it was mistake to put it crafting anyways.

And to make sure players don't complain, you can remove all crafting exp gained by making thread ^_^

10/9/07 09:13  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Players will always complain. The ones who like the idea usually don't speak up. The silent majority is what should be taken into account

10/9/07 12:12  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I always thought it was a bit strange that thread was in crafting. Since you use it for manu. But this is very probubly me.

Since I started playing EL I've wanted to be able to make the wooden handles (maybe for axes and maybe some day pickaxes and hammers) and make wooden sheilds.

(and okay. I also really want to make snadpaper. But that's just because I rarely have gc and most of that seems to go for leather, wine and sandpaper!)

But it would be awesome to be able to make cloths! (yes I've wanted to do this since I staed palying EL as well) Maybe someday we'd even be able to make some "magic" cloaks....

And I love the idea of building up! making thread and dyes and maybe even some cloth. Than once at a high level make the cloths. So cool!!!


10/9/07 21:35  
Blogger Radu said...

Yes, I agree that the thread doesn't really belong in crafting, but at the time it has been placed there, the crafting skill needed some low level items to make in order to level up, and the manufacturing skill had lots of them, so it was more of a 'strategical' decision than a "make sense" decision.

10/9/07 21:58  
Anonymous Bahamut_ZERO said...

DonĀ“t forget u will have to make a few cahnges to that manu quest, the one that theaches u to make fox scarfs.

10/9/07 22:19  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ive seen on games like Neverwinter that you can buy metal paints and material dyes which can then be applied to any of your clothes/armour. All it does it change the colour/shade, but it adds some really interesting individuality to the game.
This would also give you a bunch of dyes and paints to use for different tailoring skill levels. It would also greatly increase the variety of clothing players could wear.
Ive also seen a couple of threads on the forum where the changes required to add a colour modifier to the image files used for armour are discussed so this shouldnt be too hard to sort out.

11/9/07 04:49  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Radu,
a little feedback on this (nice) new skill you're thinking to implement:

1. it shouldn't be expensive per se but (as you hinted) only the high end, coolest items should be;

2. this could be because of many reasons: rare/precious tissues needed, precious metals (silver, gold) needed, possibly some magical properties requiring magical stones, etc.;

3. middle-ground, "ordinary" stuff shouldn't be too expensive to make, or there would be a sort of hole in building the skill;

4. this is also a good reason to move fox scarves, fur stuff etc from manufacturing into tayloring, idem for thread as many have already suggested.


11/9/07 09:06  
Blogger Radu said...

The dyes to armor thing is interesting, but unfortunately it is hard to implement. We'd need a lot of new items that just have different colors.
For example, the titanium plate has many version (normal, degraded, titanium plate of freezing), so with one extra color we'd need 3 more items just for the plate.
Doing that with all the armors is hell.

11/9/07 15:51  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Strangly enough is RL I spin (yarn) and dye it both naturally (old fashioned) adn atrificially (measure powder, dump into hopt water and let it)

Dyes, the kind I beleive your talking about, are not toxic until they are actually dying. They consist of two things mainly. A dye and a mordant. The mordant is a chemical (this is the slightly dangerous toxic part. However in reality its not very dangerous or toxic) You mordant the fiber, yarn, cloth before you dye it. The mordant breaks open parts of the cellular sturcture and allows the dye to penetrate the object (whatever your drying) so that the color (dye) is actually taken up. You can premordant the object and allow it to dry and than store it indefintily (to dye at a later date) or mordant and dye at the same time. Mordants are usually a chemical. Relatively harmless. Things like alum, iron oxide, tin oxide, rubarb (a plant) leaves and a variety of other things. (Including animal urine)

Natural dyes are often roots, berry's, bark and plants. All of the above are usually dries (because there is less water in the plant the chemicals (colors) are more consentrated.) Than they are ground up and used to dye. Dried and ground pigment can be stored indefininitly and is neither dangerous nor toxic. Unless you decide to eat it. But hey, most things in EL you store are deadly if you ingest them.

So, if you want to stay realistic storingthe dyes in hazerdous storage is silly. As seporate ingredience they're perfectly harmless. Only when you atcually have the water, morddant (or premordanted object) and dye in a pot do you something toxic.

I would recomend adding a large kettle to manu for dying the fabric and thread. Moving thread and all "fur" clothing to tailoring. Adding maybe paper as a base crafting thing. Perhaps add sand as soemthing to harvest. And glue as something to pot. Than make sandpaper for crafting after paper.

Add a knife for manu. Add leather as a lower object to make. (there are alot of furs out there. And not all that many uses. Deer, wolf, leapard, tiger....)Maybe from a deer fur make 1-2 leathers. From the nlarge cats 2 leathers and bear 3-4 leathers. Allow people to whittle (knife) handles for axes, pickaxes, hammer and the like. Maybe allow people to carve staffs. Make wooden sheilds.

I would also recomend that you have backpacks or the like which can be tailored. Maybe add 20emu or so and have a human nexus or 3-4.

Also if you're getting into tailoring the American Indians used to use died porcipine quills to decorate clothing, shoes and objects. You might add procipines into the came. Give them high defense and low or no attack. When they die have them drop maybe 10-20 quills (you get thousands from a real porcipine and yes I've done this too. But from roadkill.)a meat and a bone.

Quills can be stored. Than eventually dyed which would work with tailoring. To decorate with the quills you would need an awl or a needle. The quills are soaked in water until they are felxible. Thanthe ends are inserted into holes made my the awl or needle. This would work well for decorating cloths made with leather or fur.

It would also be possible to make medallions or the like form leatehr, fur and quills which would allow peopel to build tailoring.

I would also suggest that people manu either hand held looms (sticks to make the frame, thread for the warp and weft) which will disapear once you ahve made the peice of fabdric. These would be relatively small peices of fabric. Also larger floor looms either in various places in EL or from high manu. These would needd nails and logs and rope and some iron ore steel bars. These would not disapear with each use. But would be breakable. However I would recomend that regular people with even higher manu be able to repair the looms.

Sorry, insomniace who was intreged by the idea. Didn't know where to put these ideas so here they go. Sorry! And thanks again! Great game (yes, also new)

11/9/07 16:31  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, request! I once had a goal to have at least one of everything in EL in storage. I recently came up to the 200 object mark and had to disgard things!

With all the new objects in the game, and to come. I think it would be great if we coudl put more than 200 object into storage!

Oh, and beetles are also great for dying! dried (mayeb air essence) ground (morter and pestle) and than used with a mordant.

Also tehre are often different mordants taht are used for different dyes.

11/9/07 16:34  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a crafter, the dedication aspect seems to capture my eye. This skill sounds interested.

Will we have a god for this skill and also engineering?

11/9/07 17:42  
Anonymous Ikaris said...

Very interesting...

... a way to prevent overproduction would be something like the mercury felting and wigsetting process...

Insist people use mercury for higher level clothing items... and hit them with a health penalty for making the items. If possible ... negate health potions/spells/etc from healing them ... make them wait it out. < Mad as a hatter >


PS.. Glad you liked my pack mule idea ... didn't think you'd take it seriously ... but very pleased you are considering it.

11/9/07 19:38  
Anonymous bkc56 said...

A few random thoughts based on the above comments...

Move thread to tailoring and replace with SANDPAPER - paper (2gc from npc), diamond, water ess (to bind the diamond dust to the paper). Tool - hammer in inventory (to crush the diamond).

Add a LOOM - branches, nails, rope. Tools - hammer, axe (if they don't get used as weapons, might as well use them as tools (non-breakable)).

THREAD - as it is now.

CLOTH - lots (and lots) of thread. Tool - loom.

COLORED CLOTH - cloth, flowers (for color), water ess. The cloth color would be based on the flower's color.

Once you have colored cloth, thread, and a needle you're ready to make clothing.

11/9/07 21:02  
Anonymous majestyk said...

I do not know about how it is implemented, but wouldn't it be possible to add a "color pointer" to every item? So you wouldn't have to store a "red ti plate", you'd instead have a "ti plate, 22" with 22 pointing to a color/color scheme.

Yes, this still increases the space usage in the database, but at least you wouldn't have to create a new armor type for every possible color/color scheme. You would even be able to leave the color choices to users, yay for bad taste competitions :)

12/9/07 10:24  
Anonymous Darc0 said...

What if the dye were applied to an item you are wearing, and "wore off" when you took that item off?

That might get around requiring new items, adding instead a filter to worn items.

12/9/07 13:43  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree to move threads under tailoring skill, but I disagree to move fur clothes (boots, pants and even torso).

Quick exp and, boots/pants, profitable too (if you are able), so no players selection about tailoring skill.

Just my opinion.


12/9/07 15:50  
Blogger Radu said...

Wow, lots of comments.
Please keep in mind that this skill is ~2 months away, I'll make a thread in our forums when I'll actually start implementing it, so you will have your say there.

12/9/07 22:49  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think gem sanding paper should have a cloth backing instead of paper - no reason to put paper into the game for one item is there? It should be diamond dust bound to cloth I believe. Maybe diamond dust could be a low level crafted item to replace thread.

Other possibilities for beginning crafters are gold/silver chains or amber/pearl necklaces. I can see possibilities for both amber and pearls for other purposes - maybe potions or essences

13/9/07 07:12  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For diamond dust, there should be formulas that create multiple things at once. For example, when polishing diamond you could get polished diamond AND diamond dust.

Same way, current formula of thread using much cotton could give 2 or 3 thread instead of one.

17/9/07 06:49  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh my! I love anonymous's last post. About getting multiple things at once. Particularly for the diamonds! They're always driving me nuts. They take so much (3) sandingpapers. Maybe when sanding diamonds they could produce 2 or three things of diamond dust. some from the diamond and some from the paper (falls off and can be reused)

And I also really like the idea of being able to rush diamonds into dust with a hammer.

I am so excited about this new skill! Its the best! :)

23/9/07 12:53  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe there could be a furmula for making glue. Maybe 2-3 water ess, a fire ess and deer antlers. Other than summoning and summoning potions tehre's little use for deer antlers. Might as well do soemnthing with them. Than we could glue the diamond dust to the paper or cloth.

Ph, and maybe when you fail to make a polished diamond you could make 4-5 diamond dusts.

Perhaps when you kill an animal you could also get seiwin (can't spell it. But the tendons and dits or whatever) and we could use that for "thread" in making fur clothing and bits.

And maybe we could make our own leather.

And maybe, and maybe and maybe!!


23/9/07 13:49  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

maybe you could make looms or maybe they could go for cheaper and make a quest called the loom quest (like the wine and leather quest) where you get cheap looms

2/12/07 03:07  

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